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Why do you think Xbox emulation isnt doing so well?

blueshogun96

A lowdown dirty shame
I was just wondering on your opinions. Why do you think Xbox emulation is not doing so well now adays? I understand that Caustik and _SF_ don't have time to work on the emus anymore, but these are some reasons why I think that coders arent willing to work on an Xbox emulator.

1. Fear of being sued by microsoft.
2. They hate Xbox with a passion.
3. There isnt enough documentation.

Your opinions please.
 

SWAT_Marc

Ind. Design Student
I think that most XBOX games went out for PC (Halo2 is coming in a near future) or had their PS2 or GC version, though I'd love to run Conker:live and reloaded in my computer.
 

flowrent

New member
There are a lot of games that don't show on PC .
Xbox is really similar to a PC and a 3Ghz cpu could handle an Xbox emu.
I think the fighting games are the ones PC gamers want the most : Mortal Kombat,Soul Calibur,Dead or Alive,Kof,Fight Night etc..But there are also good titles like Burnout,Ssx,Ninja Gaiden,Forza Motorsport,Conker,Black...
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I've seen Xbox 360 hacked firmwares released so i guess it's not a matter of guts .
Why no one wants to do it? I really don't know the reasons..
I'll throw a party when i hear even a rumour of an Xbox emu :)
 
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Danny

Programmer | Moderator
I think it's surprising that we hav'nt had a xbox emulator. The reason :
not enough interest??
 

synch

New member
The simple answer would be:

-Why don't you start one?

The long one, imho, would be: Too likely to a pc, emulating the rest of things becomes a hack job rather than emulating, and the more important, many of the titles were ported to PC or ported from pc.

Sincerely, I'd really like to emulate Panzer Dragoon Orta, but I'd stop there, there're not any other xbox titles that catch my attention...
 

Danny

Programmer | Moderator
I think caustix came the closest with cxbx. i think he was onto a good idea there. Converting xbe to windows exe. of course he managed to fully emulate turok evolution with full speed.
 

Danny

Programmer | Moderator
the only game i would want is halo 2. But thats coming to the PC soon anyway.
 

Sirmatto

Member
zion said:
the only game i would want is halo 2. But thats coming to the PC soon anyway.
Unfortunately it's going to cost you close to $200 to play it, and that's if you don't have to do any hardware upgrades...
 

flowrent

New member
What about that Xbox emu inside Xbox 360 ?
As i understand there's an app that can read/write the contents of the hdd.
Would it be easier to reverse engineer that one or make it from scratch ?
But first ,is that possible now or the 360 has to be hacked some more ?
 

ScottJC

At your service, dood!
Xbox emulation isn't doing so well is because it requires a mod-chip to function, mod-chip prices for the xbox are pretty expensive and difficult to install by the looks of them... that plus emulation is far better on the PC.
 

Danny

Programmer | Moderator
Sirmatto said:
Unfortunately it's going to cost you close to $200 to play it, and that's if you don't have to do any hardware upgrades...

Is that how much vista is going to be!!!!:angry:

At least my PC doesnt need upgrading. Can run Half-Life 2 Flawlessley.
 

WhiteX

New member
zion said:
Is that how much vista is going to be!!!!:angry:

At least my PC doesnt need upgrading. Can run Half-Life 2 Flawlessley.

Irrelevant, Vista will require DX 10 cards to unlock all the goodness.
 
OP
blueshogun96

blueshogun96

A lowdown dirty shame
flowrent said:
What about that Xbox emu inside Xbox 360 ?
As i understand there's an app that can read/write the contents of the hdd.
Would it be easier to reverse engineer that one or make it from scratch ?
But first ,is that possible now or the 360 has to be hacked some more ?
If you ask me, it sounds nearly imposssible. But hey, what do i know?

The simple answer would be:

-Why don't you start one?
Good question, synch :unsure:

... and since you asked, let me share with you a little story, and you might want to get some popcorn, this is gonna be long and boring. One day (not too long ago), I was REALLY boerd and willing to do almost anything to pass the time sitting infront of my pc. And I got this crazy idea, it was "be the first to write an xbox emulator using low-level emulation (LLE) instead of HLE". Like I said, crazy. :party: Infact, I actually started writing it not really knowing what I was doing. I even gave it a name, Xenoborg. As time went by, I actually decided to keep working on it. So I started by blowing the dust off of my xbox-asm software package, going back to www.xbdev.net for non-xdk tutorials, searching for xbox-documentation, and Pentuim III docs. I even got into studying the xbox bioses, dashboard, and the xbe (Xbox executable) file format. The concept of writing an xbox emulator sounds easy because its so much like a PC, but really, it's MUCH harder than you all think (and frankly, some ways much easier). For instance, documentation on the audio codec (AC 97?), the NV2A chip, and the nForce 2 is scarce, but documentation on usb, the xbe fileformat and xfat file system is abundant. Also, there is little known about GPU boot process. This is kind of essential to xbox emulation, whether we are booting from BIOS or not. The fact that the bios is "mirrored" like 16 times is wiered enough. Also, there are many different bios versions. So far, I've worked with versions (each version represents a different XDK) like 3944, 4034, 4132 and 4627, The documented memory map appears to apply to all four of those BIOSes, but I havent messed with any others. It is possible to make a sort of "HLE bios" like the authors of pcsx2 did, but that will require some work. Not to mention the MCPX is a mystery in it self, same with the nVIDIA nForce 2 it uses. Alot of reverse engineering has been done, but there is still alot on the xbox hardware that remains undocumented. One positive thing about the Xbox is that it's kernel is very similar to a PC's Win2K kernel. The Nt* functions can be easily emulated on a high level with the existing Nt* functions contained in NtDll.dll. So the kernel should not be the problem. So far, the biggest mystery is the framebuffer. Its mapped to 0xf0000000 and goes by BGR pixel data instead of RGB, but that's about all I know atm. So far, I've been able to find only 1 doc that even breifly explains even a fraction of how the xbox's NV2A works. But I'm sure that a document on a PC's NV2A would help too, but I cant seem to find that either. Finding documentation on the right Pentium III is hard enough, and that's why I havent even begun to write a CPU core for it. I've been at it for days. At least it's a big-endian processor. But the problem remains, are there any added/removed CPU instructions? Afaik, it's all the same. The only big difference is that the Xbox's version of the PentiumIII is that it's L2 cache is 128KB and not 256KB, also it doesnt support SSE2 instructions, but SSE and MMX. But overall, emulating a standard PentiumIII 733MHz shouldn't be a big deal. I can't remember the exact name of the APU (SPU, whatever) the xbox uses. The OpenXDK documentation provides a link to that documentation. Speaking of OpenXDK, studying it's source code also helps explains some of it's mysteries. But as far as documentation goes, the best source for that is the xbox-linux homepage (http://www.xbox-linux.org), and Caustik's xbe documentation is rock solid. There is some good stuff on xbox-scene.com too. But so far, adequate documentation on the xbox's PC-like hardware is far from complete, but its all good.

Anyway, about the emulator I started working on, it only does some xbe and bios preperations, so none of the good stuff like the CPU core, interrupts, USB/Gamepad is done yet. It uses OpenGL for graphics. Atm I don't think it really has a hope in heaven, but if you guys want I'll continue it and see where it all goes from here. And if you want, I can post the source code so you all can see what I was doing all that time (or you can just look at it just in case you don't beleive a word I just said). Let me know, and I'll decide from here, ok?
 

Sirmatto

Member
flowrent said:
What about that Xbox emu inside Xbox 360 ?
As i understand there's an app that can read/write the contents of the hdd.
Would it be easier to reverse engineer that one or make it from scratch ?
But first ,is that possible now or the 360 has to be hacked some more ?
As far as I know, people have been able to access the Xbox360 HDD by hooking it up to a PC. Unfortunately, even if you were able to isolate the "emulator," you would have two problems:

1. It's built for a triple core PowerPC architecture, so good luck reverse engineering it and then porting it to x86.

2. It's not so much an all embracing emulator as it is a game specific emulator. But since most of the popular games are emulated, this isn't so much a problem.

zion said:
Is that how much vista is going to be!!!!:angry:

At least my PC doesnt need upgrading. Can run Half-Life 2 Flawlessley.
That's just my estimate of the basic version of Vista plus the cost of Halo 2 ;)
 
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Danny

Programmer | Moderator
Sirmatto, keep working on it man! It would be great to see a functional xbox emu. Are you a coder?
 

synch

New member
blueshogun96: The best answer I could expect :)

But, if I'd take a shot to xbox emulation, I would probably continue caustik's path, and try to hle the xbox. It's a pity that I don't really "like" the xbox, that just a few of the released games really catched my attention, and that it's just TOO new to emulate, for me (and by that last one, I mean that I'd rather kill myself than reading thousands of warez kiddies complaining about speed, compatibility or how to run it on a 3dfx voodoo1).
 
OP
blueshogun96

blueshogun96

A lowdown dirty shame
zion said:
Sirmatto, keep working on it man! It would be great to see a functional xbox emu. Are you a coder?
Hmmm, did I miss something? What is sirmatto working on? :plain:
 

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