whoa.. lot's happend here.
I've been really busy with school and workand stuff and so on so i've been kind of unable to reply although i've looked in this thread a few times but not really read it thru after i wrote my last post untill just now since i have time today..
Well.. all i can say is what i said in the beginning. This is a VERY relative discussion. I never said there shouldn't be a web standard. Of course that would be the best thing in the world for me and for you and for users.
But, standard. Means something is in a certain way. And it's in the same way everywhere (i hope you see the imposability in this). I hope you disagree (coz then this thread will never end
) but that's what it generally means. If something never changes then how can you advance? as you want so much. Yeah you will argue that it is of course relative to WC3's new standards etc. But, who is to say that a company can't release a browser and add functionality that they desire to have? Also functionality that many use and like to use and that works well for them. Who are you or me to say, -they should get back in line and do like the rest of the world!.
I don't think we are qualified to say, this is wrong, this is right. So i feel they should be left to do whatever the hell they want and if they want to create a standard that isn't one decided by WC3 then good for them. It's their app right? Damn i would do it if it was my app. lol.
Then we get to what do users want? they want an application to work. If it's with FF, Opera or IE who gives a flying rats ass.. Right`?
Only problem is, most use IE. And yes, it IS a problem. But that's where we are today and i won't fight against my users. It's like they say "the customer is allways right".
Now what's happend is that the mayority of the users and companies in the known world (i don't know about Mars or Jupiter), use and ONLY use IE. And yes, it IS a problem. But that's where we are today and i won't fight against my users. It's like they say -"the customer is allways right".
Sure there are exceptions from companies that don't use IE at all but there will allways be, check % rates or whatever all you like. It don't really matter to me but all i know is that there will allways be exceptions (like Apple, IBM or whomever) Just as some ppl don't drink Coke, but prefer Pepsi instead (like me). Believe me i know that.
Still, the scenario is pretty simple (maybe highly unlikelly scenario in some cases, but humor me). Let's say your boss calls you up and tells you he's got this great new idéa for a website. But the way you build it doesn't work in IE because you follow full WebStandards and there's 2 or maybe just 1 thing that makes the website not work right in IE.
What do you think your going to tell your boss?
"Oh i'm sorry, IE doesn't work with your idéa because it doesn't support full webstandards." (or somethng like that, maybe your boss tries it out in IE and doesn't get why it don't work and instead he asks you about it, i don't know, who cares, you get the point, i hope)
Your boss will not take you very seriously and think your joking, also he might after laughing wonder if you really want to keep your job.
On the other hand, if you made the website for IE. And if the website didn't work in FF or Opera for some reason.
"Oh i'm sorry, Opera/FF doesn't work with your idéa because the website was made for IE and Opera and FF don't work with everything the same way IE does."
#1, Your boss will not laugh. #2, your boss will not fire you but ask you how long it will take to fix this problem (because it of course HAS to be fixed). #3, and most important. Your boss will take you seriously.
I'm not saying we should just make apps for IE, that's not it.. Even though that's what you thought last time i wrote something like this. Ormaybe i'm really stupid when it comes to explaining what i mean. Anyways, this is a scenario to explain to you how this biz kind of works half the time (for me at least). This isn't maybe the most perfect example and don't take me so literally as you do on my other posts. But you should understand what i'm trying to say with this.
IE is prioritized, FF and Opera aren't. They come in second how much you ever argue with me. It's not allways about webstandards because they don't work 100% on any browser. Since the WC3 Standards aren't really standards in the browsers. It's not like once a new standard is out it works perfectly on all browsers but i think you know that allready.
I try to make sure the websites i build are built using webstandards yeah. But, i work under IE because i know that if it's working in IE i can allways make it work in FF or Opera. If you start building something in FF, sometimes it don't work the same in IE. At least this is my experiance and that is why i've said a few times that this is a VERY relative discussion.
I will of course agree on that in FF you have bugzilla for your vulnerabilities etc. But i think you should try out becoming an MSDN subscriber and log into the forums etc. You will find it's worked pretty well so far and usually you will see problems discovered are not that one sided. For example, you can't even run JS or VB locally in IE unless you tell the browser it's ok to do so (Well there are some ways but you can't just download a website to your desktop and load it and make it do something to your localsystem with JS). This has become the new standard for IE because of SO many troubles with this. At the same time many developers are mad that this is the way it works now, because many nonmalicious applications will not work the way they did before. So sometimes they know about the problems but can't do anything about them because it contradicts with development-standards of new systems or userability-standards. Things aren't just one sided.
ActiveX, you don't seem to like it. My guess is you've never worked with larger systems. I've built a few larger intranet applications that use SQL, ActiveX, Web and diferent types of server software. Mostly MS stuff though i'll agree. I've built an application here and there where you connect machines to SQL databases and do all the feedback on standard computer screens using IE and ActiveX. It works flawlessly (if you know what your doing).
One of the coolest things i've made was create a full webcreating application using an array of 12x17" touchscreens for a conferense room. It worked great and the company that uses it has worked with this for 2.5 years now and use it all the time. The system is very simple, uses an IE browser in fullscreen mode and ActiveX to manipulate all objects on the screen. You can make Word documents and mix them with Excel documents and pictures and drawings and sound and create something. Every object is connected thru a simple SQLdb. Move around stuff, resize, rotate, etc using a pen or your fingers. They use the system on their brainstorming meetings and they keep telling me it's great. There are companies that make these types of systems but it would be much more expensive to buy a big system like this than ask me to build it when it's so easy to do if you know what tools to use.
Of course if someone would ask me to make a system like this and gave me 1 million and 2 years to build it i would make the application in C++ (wich takes much longer time, at least for me).
But since the companies/ppl asking me to build them a system are allways in a hurry and don't want to pay longtime development costs. Things are done in ASP/PHP or even Perl or Java a few times (depends on their own systems).
Anyways, like i said. Webstandards = Great thing. Sadly they don't allways work with everything. That's the only point i'm really trying to make and it's why i try to make sure that websites allways work perfectly in IE and then in other browsers. I do consider Mozilla to be important but of course not as important as IE. Wich to me is simple trueth, webstandards or no webstandards.
PS: If you prefer the debugger in FF that's great, good for you. All i said is that you don't trully need more. Your making it look like IE's JS-error msg are so bad but their not. They never say "There's an Error", they say where and what type. To me that's all i need. Wich is why i say this is such a Relative discussion. I just don't see the need of so much info when i know allready what i need to know with IE's. But like i said, it's all very very relative to the developer/user.
