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In regards to "Rom dumping... howto"

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Nemo

Master Sporksman
Not trying to start a hellfire in here, but I just figured some would like to see evidence of the legality of dumping roms.

I'll link, but first I'll paraphrase:
Rom dumping is legal for personal use, so long as you own the game (tech. a liscence to use the game). A liscence allows you to dump your own game -- I repeat to dump your own game This does not give you permission to download a rom of it off of the internet! Ok, now here is the link...

http://www.idsa.com/faq.html

look under the heading:
U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes.

This is true as far as I know, mainly because I know the ISDA would not lie in favor of roms, despite what Nintendo may say in its faq. (Likely reasioning that saying it is ok to dump your own games will allow people to rationalize downloading them -- even when expressly told it is illegal).

Sorry if I've stepped on any toes by bringing this back up, but I had no opportunity to post it on the other thread, and I believe this information to be very relevent -- and also from a very reliable source, considering its contents.
 
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Nemo

Master Sporksman
Lol, hey, I'm weighing two evils and trying to go with the lesser: Bringing it up one more time to stop people from bringing it up ten more times. And besides, I think many people would like to see this, and I doubt many have looked at it (Especially considering all of the people saying it's illegal to back-up your own games).
 

neoak

Triforce of Something...
Nemo said:
Not trying to start a hellfire in here, but I just figured some would like to see evidence of the legality of dumping roms.

I'll link, but first I'll paraphrase:
Rom dumping is legal for personal use, so long as you own the game (tech. a liscence to use the game). A liscence allows you to dump your own game -- I repeat to dump your own game This does not give you permission to download a rom of it off of the internet! Ok, now here is the link...

http://www.idsa.com/faq.html

look under the heading:
U.S. Copyright laws permit making a "backup" copy of computer programs for archival purposes.

This is true as far as I know, mainly because I know the ISDA would not lie in favor of roms, despite what Nintendo may say in its faq. (Likely reasioning that saying it is ok to dump your own games will allow people to rationalize downloading them -- even when expressly told it is illegal).

Sorry if I've stepped on any toes by bringing this back up, but I had no opportunity to post it on the other thread, and I believe this information to be very relevent -- and also from a very reliable source, considering its contents.

Hey Wise Guy! I will put it simple: It is piracy. You can't have an exact copy, 1:1, of a Cart. That is why is illegal. Don't tell me that copy devices transfer all. Games are Software and Hardware in the cart inside... If you want to play a backup ROM, you must defeat it's security and that is to MODIFY IT!

If you want to copy, do it. But then don't come back here. All of us agree that piracy is something that is not to be talked.

As you are flamming the rules Nintendo set, and also the rules of this forum, i recommend you look for others that think piracy is the only way. N64 games were DESIGNED TO BE PLAYED IN A N64, NO IN A PC!!.

Also, as with the PC software, if you open the Box, YOU COMPLY WITH THE RULES AND THE END-USER AGREEMENT. AND THAT AGREEMENT SAYS ---BACKING UP GAMES IS PROHIBITED!!!!---.

That is why. When you opened the box, you agreed to comply with the "contract" Nintendo set for the use of the games. If you broke any rule of this agreement, then what you are doing is considered illegal and can be punished.

Next time, don't try to justify going against an End-User Agreement. That is PIRACY! (!)
 

Chibi Nick

Emutalk Member
Re: Re: In regards to "Rom dumping... howto"

neoak said:
That is why. When you opened the box, you agreed to comply with the "contract" Nintendo set for the use of the games. If you broke any rule of this agreement, then what you are doing is considered illegal and can be punished.

Next time, don't try to justify going against an End-User Agreement. That is PIRACY! (!)
lol naw... just say "Mine didn't have a manual... must have been a mistake" or something and hey... what can they do? You didn't sign anything and weren't made aware of it so it shouldn't be a binding contract..

anyways the site says roms are legal to dump, so they are! But but but but but!!!!!!! look at what it says about emulators... and I quote:

"While some emulators are made by hobbyist programmers, that does not mean that they are legal. If the sole purpose of an emulator is to allow the playing of a console game on a PC, and the owner of the copyrights in that console game has not authorized the copying, performance, display, or derivative work created when a console game is played on a PC, then the creation and use of that emulator constitutes an infringement of the copyrights in the console game. "


People have it backwards apparently... roms are legal, creating and using emulators for the purpose of playing console games on the pc are not legal

I don't think those threads on rom dumping should have been closed... BUT,

This forum is not a democracy, the forums are run by the admins and moderators... their words are law here, we break their law and they ban us... they hold the power and can do what they feel like...

anyways...
 

BTM

Polish Emu Scene Member
Re: Re: In regards to "Rom dumping... howto"

neoak said:
Also, as with the PC software, if you open the Box, YOU COMPLY WITH THE RULES AND THE END-USER AGREEMENT. AND THAT AGREEMENT SAYS ---BACKING UP GAMES IS PROHIBITED!!!!---.

LOL have you ever read EULA ?
You can make 1 ( one ) copy of the software you bought for security purpouse. But you can not use the oryginal software and the backup copy at the same time.
Plus when your selling the oryginal you have to sell the copy aswell ( doh! <_< ).
You can even install thesame software on couples of machines providing it wont be used at thesame time.


some quotes to back that up :

(b) You may make one copy of the Software in machine-readable form solely for backup purposes. You must reproduce on any such copy all copyright notices and any other proprietary legends on the original copy of the Software.

(a) Other than as set forth in Section 2, you may not make or distribute copies of the Software, or electronically transfer the Software from one computer to another or over a network.
// this is to the point B above
 
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Allnatural

New member
Moderator
I closed those earlier threads because this has always been a legal grey area. Copyright law may allow you to make a single back-up of your own software, but the EULA of a particular piece of software often supersedes the law. Throw the "fair use" concept into the mix and things become all the more murky. It's a matter for the courts to decide.

The bottom line is this: Emutalk (and Emulation64) are about emulation. They are not about roms, despite the mutually exclusive relationship. The acquiring of roms (whether downloaded or dumped from the cartridges one owns) is left solely to the individual. Technical discussions of such matters will not be allowed.
 

GE Master

New member
Okay

Well this is a truely great post and thanks for making it. I was wondering where I could find the information on this matter. I believe that the Nintendo information is not updated to the changes in these laws.

This is a VERY important matter. This is a question of what our rights are, not a companies opinion on what our rights are.

I cannot believe that the vets of this emu board would cut down this posting. This is information, legal info, on what we can and cannot do. What is wrong with that?

Laws have been changed recently allowing backups. Why is it that a emu board cannot keep abreast of this? This is big news. It may be saying, we are allowed to be playing our Nintendo 64 games on the PC. Isn't that what you want? That's what I want.

I do apologize that I haven't read every post here. I will repost again but I just want to say thanks to the original poster of this. This is VERY valuable info and I appreciate it.
 

GE Master

New member
part 2

Well I don't want to sound like a total geek. The reason this is such an important topic is simply because I want to be able to talk about emulation without worrying about a company like Nintendo telling me I'm breaking the law.

I know for a fact that recently the laws around backups have been changed. Music or software wise, you are allowed to legally make a backup. It's a rights issue.

-The music I have is on record.
-I want to be able to play it in my car on my cd player.
-I bought and own the record
-Can I copy this record (format a) into cd (format b) for use on my cd player?
-While I'm at it, I'd like to use that backup on my PC to listen to also.

Okay, can anyone see the parallel here? Is software different than the rights of the music holder? Please tell me. Since it's all about protection, aren't these all the same? MUSIC, GAMES, MOVIES, etc. They all have copyrights. I really don't know, but it seems that there aren't exceptions for each different one. They fall under copyright law.

So IF I can backup music, is that the same as backing up software? Sure it's not record to record, but it's still transferring to a different format, other than its intended use. Also I'm not using my record player to play my backup, I'm using a car stereo.

What I'm getting at is, who's telling the truth here? What the fuck are out true rights? I think the ISDA is a mouthpiece for the companies and that FAQ is so technical and double edged who the hell here knows what they are saying? It's very unclear and misleading, intentionally imo.

This matter needs to be resolved. Is software, console or not, fall under the same copyright protections and rights that music does. That is the true question. If so, then how can any of this be considered illegal? I suppose you could say a cd player is an actual product and an emulator is not. Yes, the waters are muddying as I speak.....

My 2 cents once again. Get a lawyer. Again, the bottom line for me is this. I want to be able to talk about emulation without any fear of breaking the law. I'm not convinced that I am breaking the law. There isn't enough information about it. At the very least I'd expect the makers of the emulators to have SOME say in this. Not even the touchy ROM issue. The legaility of emulation. PERIOD.
 

Allnatural

New member
Moderator
I don't know what your problem is GE Master. You can talk about emulation as much as you want. Precedent has established the legality of emulators. You can create, you can download, you can use them in any way you wish. Where I draw the line is the discussion of where or how to acquire roms. Sure, US copyright law grants you the right to ONE back-up of a piece of software. However, the EULA may say otherwise. Which do you follow? That's where things get tricky. The EULA is considered a binding contract, one which you agree to when you install/use a piece of software. Some will argue that the EULA can be overreaching. While that is sometimes true, it's up to the courts to decide on a case-by-case basis which stands above the other, copyright law or the EULA. It all depends on how the courts apply the "fair use" clause. Personal use is generally considered "fair use," provided of course that the person making the back-up owns an original. Now you're thinking, "great, I can now dump the carts I own, as per my 'fair use' rights." Well, things only get more grey from here...

You must also consider the means by which you are extracting roms. You need a dumper for this, and the DMCA (like it or not) forbids the distribution of such devices. I'm no expert in these matters, but I believe that also forbids the purchasing of such devices. Don't bother with the Gameshark arguement. That the Gameshark (a legal device) can, apparently, be used for rom dumping is irrelevant. A third-party program is ultimately required to accomplish this. The Gameshark is legal, the "program" probably isn't.

It has been stated that you can circumvent the DMCA and take advantage of your "fair use" rights in such matters, but it involves building (or coding) your own dumper, not purchasing (or downloading) one. You still have to deal with the EULA though.

Yeah, it's a lot of legal mumbo-jumbo, and I may be in error on some points (not likely though). It's precisely because of the murky nature of copyright law that I won't allow the discussion of roms. Whether downloaded or dumped, you're on your own. I kindly ask now that the discussion ends here. I have the support of the other mods and admins, so further arguing of the point is fruitless. Our word is law here, have a nice day. :)


For those interested, I got most of my information from the EmuFAQ. Read it. It may answer numerous questions, or it may befuddle you, but it's a good read.
 
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